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	<title>Comments on: Übercontrarian Silliness on Comment Spam</title>
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	<link>http://xrlq.com/2005/01/22/uebercontrarian-silliness-on-comment-spam/</link>
	<description>Politische Kommentare mit Snarkenremarken</description>
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		<title>By: Barney Gumble</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2005/01/22/uebercontrarian-silliness-on-comment-spam/comment-page-1/#comment-13127</link>
		<dc:creator>Barney Gumble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:33:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2005/01/22/2115/uebercontrarian-silliness-on-comment-spam/#comment-13127</guid>
		<description>Oh, yeah, did I mention I am an idiot?   Dddddeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrr...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, yeah, did I mention I am an idiot?   Dddddeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrr&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2005/01/22/uebercontrarian-silliness-on-comment-spam/comment-page-1/#comment-13125</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jan 2005 04:13:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2005/01/22/2115/uebercontrarian-silliness-on-comment-spam/#comment-13125</guid>
		<description>Technology may be constantly progressing, but spam still infests our lives on a daily basis. It isn&#039;t going to go away, and the spammers know that; they may switch to different modes of spamming or they may start spamming for a different perceived benefit, but they&#039;re going to keep on spamming and nofollow isn&#039;t going to stop that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Technology may be constantly progressing, but spam still infests our lives on a daily basis. It isn&#8217;t going to go away, and the spammers know that; they may switch to different modes of spamming or they may start spamming for a different perceived benefit, but they&#8217;re going to keep on spamming and nofollow isn&#8217;t going to stop that.</p>
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		<title>By: McGehee</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2005/01/22/uebercontrarian-silliness-on-comment-spam/comment-page-1/#comment-13124</link>
		<dc:creator>McGehee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jan 2005 03:16:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2005/01/22/2115/uebercontrarian-silliness-on-comment-spam/#comment-13124</guid>
		<description>James, what they&#039;ll do is what marketers have done for centuries when an established method of marketing goes away. They&#039;ll move on and try something else. When they hit upon something that works better for them than comment spamming in a &quot;no_follow&quot; blogosphere, they&#039;ll concentrate resources on that.

They know perfectly well that with technology progressing constantly, anything they invest in will be good for only a short while (though comment-spamming and trackback spamming have been good for way too long already). It&#039;s written into their cost-benefit analysis.

&lt;i&gt;&quot;I think the above is a no-brainer for anybody who’s already spamming.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Just one problem: spammers &lt;b&gt;do&lt;/b&gt; have brains.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James, what they&#8217;ll do is what marketers have done for centuries when an established method of marketing goes away. They&#8217;ll move on and try something else. When they hit upon something that works better for them than comment spamming in a &#8220;no_follow&#8221; blogosphere, they&#8217;ll concentrate resources on that.</p>
<p>They know perfectly well that with technology progressing constantly, anything they invest in will be good for only a short while (though comment-spamming and trackback spamming have been good for way too long already). It&#8217;s written into their cost-benefit analysis.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;I think the above is a no-brainer for anybody who’s already spamming.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Just one problem: spammers <b>do</b> have brains.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2005/01/22/uebercontrarian-silliness-on-comment-spam/comment-page-1/#comment-13123</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jan 2005 02:46:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2005/01/22/2115/uebercontrarian-silliness-on-comment-spam/#comment-13123</guid>
		<description>It makes a lot of sense. Let&#039;s say you&#039;ve invested in some mass-posting scripts for different weblogging tools and forums, and you&#039;ve gotten yourself a list of places where you can host and run these scripts. Then you find out you&#039;re not going to get PageRank benefits from all those comments you&#039;re spewing. Do you:

A) Give up, or
B) Realize that some benefit is better than none, and raise the volume of your posting to take advantage of the inevitable few tenths of a percent click-through?

I think the above is a no-brainer for anybody who&#039;s already spamming.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It makes a lot of sense. Let&#8217;s say you&#8217;ve invested in some mass-posting scripts for different weblogging tools and forums, and you&#8217;ve gotten yourself a list of places where you can host and run these scripts. Then you find out you&#8217;re not going to get PageRank benefits from all those comments you&#8217;re spewing. Do you:</p>
<p>A) Give up, or<br />
B) Realize that some benefit is better than none, and raise the volume of your posting to take advantage of the inevitable few tenths of a percent click-through?</p>
<p>I think the above is a no-brainer for anybody who&#8217;s already spamming.</p>
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		<title>By: Xrlq</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2005/01/22/uebercontrarian-silliness-on-comment-spam/comment-page-1/#comment-13122</link>
		<dc:creator>Xrlq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jan 2005 02:35:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2005/01/22/2115/uebercontrarian-silliness-on-comment-spam/#comment-13122</guid>
		<description>That doesn&#039;t make sense.  No one is &quot;committed to spamming&quot; as an end in itself.  Spammers spam to get something in return.  Some spam one way to boost page rankings of certain web sites, while others spam a different way with the intent that their messages actually be read by real humans, and others still (most, I suspect) resort to both.  Mounting a frontal attack on one kind of spam may or may not succeed against that type of spam, but it won&#039;t make the other kind any more (or less) useful to the potential spammer.  It won&#039;t affect it at all.

What will affect it, of course, is better spamming technology.  That&#039;s almost certain to happen no matter what the rest of us do.  The only question is whether we&#039;re going to have better technology to fight back.  The nofollow attribute is an important part of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That doesn&#8217;t make sense.  No one is &#8220;committed to spamming&#8221; as an end in itself.  Spammers spam to get something in return.  Some spam one way to boost page rankings of certain web sites, while others spam a different way with the intent that their messages actually be read by real humans, and others still (most, I suspect) resort to both.  Mounting a frontal attack on one kind of spam may or may not succeed against that type of spam, but it won&#8217;t make the other kind any more (or less) useful to the potential spammer.  It won&#8217;t affect it at all.</p>
<p>What will affect it, of course, is better spamming technology.  That&#8217;s almost certain to happen no matter what the rest of us do.  The only question is whether we&#8217;re going to have better technology to fight back.  The nofollow attribute is an important part of it.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2005/01/22/uebercontrarian-silliness-on-comment-spam/comment-page-1/#comment-13120</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jan 2005 01:49:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2005/01/22/2115/uebercontrarian-silliness-on-comment-spam/#comment-13120</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite=http://xrlq.com/archives/2005/01/22/2115/uebercontrarian-silliness-on-comment-spam/#comment-13119&quot;&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;Nofollow takes away most of the benefit of one type of spam (the kind intended to boost page rankings), while creating no new benefits for the other (the kind intended to be read). From that, it’s axiomatic that the net impact on spam will be negative.&lt;i&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think your analysis is off there; it takes away the benefit of one type of comment spam, sure, but in so doing it makes the other much more attractive to anyone who&#039;s already committed to spamming as a strategy. The reasoning here is that one type of comment spam requires PageRank benefits to function, and the other doesn&#039;t. Take away the PageRank benefits and it&#039;s easy to see what will happen. Thus the net impact, insofar as it can be predicted, is an increase in the second type of spam.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite=http://xrlq.com/archives/2005/01/22/2115/uebercontrarian-silliness-on-comment-spam/#comment-13119""><p><i>Nofollow takes away most of the benefit of one type of spam (the kind intended to boost page rankings), while creating no new benefits for the other (the kind intended to be read). From that, it’s axiomatic that the net impact on spam will be negative.</i><i></i></p></blockquote>
<p>I think your analysis is off there; it takes away the benefit of one type of comment spam, sure, but in so doing it makes the other much more attractive to anyone who&#8217;s already committed to spamming as a strategy. The reasoning here is that one type of comment spam requires PageRank benefits to function, and the other doesn&#8217;t. Take away the PageRank benefits and it&#8217;s easy to see what will happen. Thus the net impact, insofar as it can be predicted, is an increase in the second type of spam.</p>
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		<title>By: Xrlq</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2005/01/22/uebercontrarian-silliness-on-comment-spam/comment-page-1/#comment-13119</link>
		<dc:creator>Xrlq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jan 2005 00:56:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2005/01/22/2115/uebercontrarian-silliness-on-comment-spam/#comment-13119</guid>
		<description>Sunk costs may influence irrational comment spammers in various ways, but they won&#039;t influence the rational ones who, uncoincidentally, are the ones most likely to be successful in spreading their spam to all quarters of the Internet.  Currently, there are almost no controls on email and Usenet, so guess what?  That&#039;s where most of the spam is.  Web sites could host spam intended to be read, but they don&#039;t provide any real advantages for that.  Boosting page rankings is the one thing web sites can do for spammers that email and Usenet can&#039;t.

More generally, look at the big picture.  Nofollow takes away most of the benefit of one type of spam (the kind intended to boost page rankings), while creating no new benefits for the other (the kind intended to be read).  From that, it&#039;s axiomatic that the net impact on spam will be negative.  If comment spam increases over the next few months (and I have little doubt that it will), it will be in spite of developments like nofollow, not because of them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sunk costs may influence irrational comment spammers in various ways, but they won&#8217;t influence the rational ones who, uncoincidentally, are the ones most likely to be successful in spreading their spam to all quarters of the Internet.  Currently, there are almost no controls on email and Usenet, so guess what?  That&#8217;s where most of the spam is.  Web sites could host spam intended to be read, but they don&#8217;t provide any real advantages for that.  Boosting page rankings is the one thing web sites can do for spammers that email and Usenet can&#8217;t.</p>
<p>More generally, look at the big picture.  Nofollow takes away most of the benefit of one type of spam (the kind intended to boost page rankings), while creating no new benefits for the other (the kind intended to be read).  From that, it&#8217;s axiomatic that the net impact on spam will be negative.  If comment spam increases over the next few months (and I have little doubt that it will), it will be in spite of developments like nofollow, not because of them.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2005/01/22/uebercontrarian-silliness-on-comment-spam/comment-page-1/#comment-13118</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jan 2005 00:13:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2005/01/22/2115/uebercontrarian-silliness-on-comment-spam/#comment-13118</guid>
		<description>My reason for assuming that comment spammers will &quot;fall back&quot; to postign for eyeballs is the simple fact that they&#039;ve invested time and money in spamming as a marketing technique, and I don&#039;t expect them to just say &quot;aw, shucks&quot; and give up. Spam which tries to get read and clicked on has been successful in email (if it weren&#039;t successful, the spammers would eventually stop or go out of business), and there spammers have to spend a good bit of time and effort devising ways around blacklists and filters. Keep in mind that the profitability point for spam is ludicrously low; the numbers I&#039;ve seen generally claim that a click-through rate of anywhere from 0.4% to 0.6% will make money, and I think they could probably manage that rate with comment spam if they wanted to.

As to whether spammers are currently &quot;holding back&quot;, I&#039;m still somewhat undecided but leaning in that direction. It&#039;s true that there&#039;s an awful lot of comment spam out there, but it&#039;s a drop in the bucket compared to the volume we see in email and on USENET. Now I know for a fact that comment spammers have access to mass-posting software and other tools just like their brethren in other media, so why is that? I wonder sometimes if what we&#039;ve seen up until now wasn&#039;t just testing the waters; after all, certain weblogging tools made it ridiculously easy to ride the comment-spam gravy train for a very long time, so all a spammer needed was the occasional burst of posts to high-PageRank weblogs. And that was good business sense from a spammer&#039;s point of view; if you don&#039;t have to make twenty million posts to turn a profit, don&#039;t. Now that we&#039;re closing some of the loopholes I think we&#039;ll see the firehoses get turned on in earnest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My reason for assuming that comment spammers will &#8220;fall back&#8221; to postign for eyeballs is the simple fact that they&#8217;ve invested time and money in spamming as a marketing technique, and I don&#8217;t expect them to just say &#8220;aw, shucks&#8221; and give up. Spam which tries to get read and clicked on has been successful in email (if it weren&#8217;t successful, the spammers would eventually stop or go out of business), and there spammers have to spend a good bit of time and effort devising ways around blacklists and filters. Keep in mind that the profitability point for spam is ludicrously low; the numbers I&#8217;ve seen generally claim that a click-through rate of anywhere from 0.4% to 0.6% will make money, and I think they could probably manage that rate with comment spam if they wanted to.</p>
<p>As to whether spammers are currently &#8220;holding back&#8221;, I&#8217;m still somewhat undecided but leaning in that direction. It&#8217;s true that there&#8217;s an awful lot of comment spam out there, but it&#8217;s a drop in the bucket compared to the volume we see in email and on USENET. Now I know for a fact that comment spammers have access to mass-posting software and other tools just like their brethren in other media, so why is that? I wonder sometimes if what we&#8217;ve seen up until now wasn&#8217;t just testing the waters; after all, certain weblogging tools made it ridiculously easy to ride the comment-spam gravy train for a very long time, so all a spammer needed was the occasional burst of posts to high-PageRank weblogs. And that was good business sense from a spammer&#8217;s point of view; if you don&#8217;t have to make twenty million posts to turn a profit, don&#8217;t. Now that we&#8217;re closing some of the loopholes I think we&#8217;ll see the firehoses get turned on in earnest.</p>
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		<title>By: aphrael</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2005/01/22/uebercontrarian-silliness-on-comment-spam/comment-page-1/#comment-13117</link>
		<dc:creator>aphrael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jan 2005 21:32:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2005/01/22/2115/uebercontrarian-silliness-on-comment-spam/#comment-13117</guid>
		<description>You should post this at kuro5hin. If ubernostrum appears in irc while i&#039;m not quiescent, i&#039;ll tell him to read this post, but there&#039;s no guarantee that will happen ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You should post this at kuro5hin. If ubernostrum appears in irc while i&#8217;m not quiescent, i&#8217;ll tell him to read this post, but there&#8217;s no guarantee that will happen &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: actus</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2005/01/22/uebercontrarian-silliness-on-comment-spam/comment-page-1/#comment-13116</link>
		<dc:creator>actus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jan 2005 15:43:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2005/01/22/2115/uebercontrarian-silliness-on-comment-spam/#comment-13116</guid>
		<description>If they have bots posting, I can imagine it may be more of an effort to stop these bots than to keep them going.

However, it would be an effort to update the bots if posting systems change.  Perhaps that effort is justified.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If they have bots posting, I can imagine it may be more of an effort to stop these bots than to keep them going.</p>
<p>However, it would be an effort to update the bots if posting systems change.  Perhaps that effort is justified.</p>
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