I have admitted to some degree that all people have their struggles. I made the point that you and many other Christians fail to see the struggles of homosexuals. You just dismissed that and went on and on about some sort of marketing strategy for gay acceptance because that is what you believe. I’m not arguing who has the bigger cross to carry. I have no idea how heavy someone else’s cross is. Apparently you’ve been given some insight into the fact that they all “weigh” the same.

Trust me, I know your argument. I know it through and through. I studied scripture, theology and philosophy at a very conservative Catholic university. I even stayed at a seminary for a time. I argued with gay people all the time and told them how wrong they were. I had it figured out. I know your arguments. Trust me. To be honest with you, I reject them not because they lack all value or are unworthy of debate. I reject them because I can see in your comments an irrational dismissal and borderline loathing of gay people.

You drone on about this “you think your special” thing and it is really tiresome. I have never claimed to be special. Where have I said, “I’m special?” I have claimed that my struggle is different than yours. I have claimed to be let down by the Church and most of her members. You, however, prefer to use the phrase you’re not special” because it is a way to arrogantly put some in their place, much like you used the line about “hyperventilating.” This was about reparative therapy and the methods some Christians use to achieve change in a homosexual person which is usually impossible and how ignorant and insensitive their comments to gay Church members often are.

You are the one who came back with “aw you just think you’re special. You’re not so special.” I have at least twice admitted that all people struggle and that I am not special in the fact that I struggle. However, you fail to see that struggles are different. They have their genesis and they impact different areas of our lives. Each one’s struggle is different and I do not subscribe to your -suck it up camper- theology. It’s easy for you to ignore people’s struggles if they’re all the same.

Perhaps the Church would stop responding to homosexuals if homosexuals would stop initiating the arguments. Very few pastors and priests actually want to talk about gay marriage or other incidentals of the gay agenda, but when the popular culture is so aggressively pushing these things, they have a duty to respond.

Did you really read what I wrote? Did you not see that I was mostly upset with the fact that they rail against “the gays” when they don’t realize that not all of “the gays” are the same.

Some people just can’t stand the idea that their own beliefs aren’t so logicaly necessary that any intelligent, sane, and morally upright person would agree with them.

I could say the same to you.

As to ignorance and bigotry: it’s always easy to say that to someone you disagree with. For ignorance: I’m willing to wager that I know at least as much about sexual temptation and struggles as you do, with most of it from first-hand knowledge.

I have surmised form your comments that you are ignorant of the feelings and interior struggles of homosexual persons. I maintain this position.

For bigotry: it’s a bit rich to have you, the person who wants to set aside a particular class of people for special treatment, to accuse me, the one who thinks all people should be treated the same, of bigotry.

You think that accepting homosexuality is giving one group of people special treatment because you think that homosexuality is wrong. Therefore, why should “they” get to be bad and I have to be good?

Are you really this afraid of admitting that while we all have our struggles not all struggles are the same? Sure we all fall short of being worthy of Christ, but you seriously do no think that people are different? That their struggles are different? I mean, perhaps you have experienced extreme sexual temptation and perhaps you have figured where that compulsion comes from. If this is the case I applaud your efforts. However, please do not project the discoveries you have made about yourself on to everyone else because they likely do not apply.

You did not answer why you think homosexuality is wrong. Try to remove homosexuality as an abstraction from the your perception (and apparent distaste) for homosexual people. I’d sincerely like to know why you think it is wrong.

For the sake of clarity:

1. Homosexuality is really not much of a struggle for me anymore.

2. I do not use words like homophobe.

I’ve pointed out how so many other people have struggles that are similar to yours, and instead of responding to my many innocuous examples, you cherry picked a few of the more extreme ones to say that I’m comparing you to pedophiles and rapists. (That was the “hyperventilating”, by the way.)

Your response is designed to let you dismiss my arguments without thinking about them. Still, there they are. Give me anything that you think makes your struggles special, and I will point to other classes of people who’s struggles are closely analogous.
–
I’ve never thought that the whole structure of moral theology stood or fell on the idea that it all had to be retained intact and undisturbed. In fact, I don’t recall anyone ever expressing that belief to me, and doubt that it is very common.

Much more common, I suspect, is that when person A can’t convince person B to change his moral views, he uses such a claim as a way to explain how person B is being irrational. Some people just can’t stand the idea that their own beliefs aren’t so logicaly necessary that any intelligent, sane, and morally upright person would agree with them.
–
Perhaps the Church would stop responding to homosexuals if homosexuals would stop initiating the arguments. Very few pastors and priests actually want to talk about gay marriage or other incidentals of the gay agenda, but when the popular culture is so aggressively pushing these things, they have a duty to respond.

When popular culture switches to defending bestiality, I’m sure they will then switch to talking about that.
–
As to ignorance and bigotry: it’s always easy to say that to someone you disagree with. For ignorance: I’m willing to wager that I know at least as much about sexual temptation and struggles as you do, with most of it from first-hand knowledge.

For bigotry: it’s a bit rich to have you, the person who wants to set aside a particular class of people for special treatment, to accuse me, the one who thinks all people should be treated the same, of bigotry.

It isn’t that simple. There are straights who could easily learn to like members of the same sex and there are old farts who will never for the rest of their remaining life look at a woman over thirty. Is he less sympathetic than the other figures? More responsible for his own problem?

You might think so, but only, I think, because of prejudices that you bring to the discussion, not because anyone really understands the mechanisms of sexual attraction.

It isn’t that simple. There are gays who could easily learn to like the other sex and there are old farts who will never for the rest of their remaining life look at a woman over thirty. Is he less sympathetic than the other figures? More responsible for his own problem?

You might think so, but only, I think, because of prejudices that you bring to the discussion, not because anyone really understands the mechanisms of sexual attraction.

Such as?

And I haven’t tried to convince anyone here that homosexual sex is wrong. I’m not even sure how I would go about doing that. My argument was directed against Reparative’s claim that homosexuals face problems that are fundamentally worse or more tragic than the problems that others face.

You may not have tried to convince, but you certainly stated it. e.g.

I’m well aware that many homosexuals don’t think there is anything wrong with being homosexual. This is another way that they are no different from anyone else. Everyone who engages in wrong behavior tries to rationalize and justify it. The difference with homosexuality, as I implied before, is that they have enormous cultural backing to help support their rationalizations.

So you think there is “something wrong” with homosexuals? Try to extricate your prejudices and perceptions of homosexuals from homosexuality in general or as an idea and explain to me why you thing there is something wrong with homosexuality in the abstract. I think we might be able to have a better discussion that way.

Now don’t start hyperventilating: I’m not comparing gays to genocides. I’m only bringing it up these extreme examples to prove that just because your culture supports an activity, that doesn’t mean the activity is good.

I’ve seen my parents use this tactic on each other. One begins to get upset and to try to get the upper hand the other feigns calm and tries to be the level headed one. “Now calm down honey.” It’s offensive and condescending and it doesn’t work on me. And no one is hyperventiliating here.

Many people have this belief. It’s a result of the marketing I’ve referred to. But it’s all marketing hype. Feel bad for the poor tragic gays. There is no real argument behind the position. None that doesn’t apply equally well to many other situations.

Can you stick to what I’m saying and try to see the difference between what you assume of activists and what I am saying? Recall, please that I stated the following: http://xrlq.com/?comments_popup=2426#comment-16222

I do not know you at all, but if you perceive this “marketing hype” in media please understand first of all that it may or may not be the case. Perhaps the problem is that people with different struggles than your own are getting all the “attention.” It seems to really have an impact on you and it borders on obsessive in these comments. Your perception does not make something fact.

Also, please understand that as far as this “poor tragic gay” is concerned, there is nothing tragic about my life. The big tragedy is that people in the Church largely dismiss the struggles gay people go through as “just another struggle.” You don’t get it and I’m not sure I can make it any clearer to you with my limited abilities. Rather than trying to understand you would apparently rather cast gays into the same lot as pedophiles and rapists. It’s easier and it keeps the Church’s moral theology neatly wrapped up in a tight little ball. I understand. I used to think that the whole structure of moral theology stood or fell on the idea that it all had to be retained intact and undisturbed. God and His moral order are a little bigger and more profound than that, I think.

Perhaps the Church should have a look at the last few months of sermons and see how many times people with other struggles were lambasted the way gays are. It’s done with no distinction between gay marriage activists and the “poor tragic gays” sitting in the congregation. Now, if you want to talk about poor and tragic, THAT is poor and tragic! It’s a poor excuse for witnessing the Gospel and it’s a poor excuse for intellect. It’s tragic because the gay sub-culture embraces people who are “coming out” pretty readily while the representatives of Christ are often ignorant and bigoted even to those gay persons who are striving for sanctity and chastity within the teachings of the Church. (You are equally guilty of this in these comments.)

And I haven’t tried to convince anyone here that homosexual sex is wrong. I’m not even sure how I would go about doing that. My argument was directed against Reparative’s claim that homosexuals face problems that are fundamentally worse or more tragic than the problems that others face.

Many people have this belief. It’s a result of the marketing I’ve referred to. But it’s all marketing hype. Feel bad for the poor tragic gays. There is no real argument behind the position. None that doesn’t apply equaly well to many other situations.

I’m well aware that many homosexuals don’t think there is anything wrong with being homosexual. This is another way that they are no different from anyone else. Everyone who engages in wrong behavior tries to rationalize and justify it. The difference with homosexuality, as I implied before, is that they have enormous cultural backing to help support their rationalizations.

Um, no. There’s a more fundamental difference than that. Rape, pedophilia and incest all violate the rights of others, while bestiality harms animals without justification, and women who target married men (or vice-versa) threaten one of society’s most basic insistutions. It’s clear why those activities should be regarded as “wrong,” and therefore in need of “justification” or “rationalization.” It’s much less clear what is so “wrong” about homosexuality (or, for that matter, prostitution) beyond the mere fact that you said it is.

BTW, there’s no point entering an anti-spam version of an email address in a comment to this blog. Email addresses are never displayed anyway, so there’s nothing for spambots to harvest here.

I compared homosexuality to a lot of things, including being shy or wanting women that are too young for you. In response, you picked out the worst of the things I mentioned and implied that I was drawing a moral equivalence. Do you think I was also drawing a moral equivalence between rape and being shy or between pedophilia and being unnatractive?

I’m well aware that many homosexuals don’t think there is anything wrong with being homosexual. This is another way that they are no different from anyone else. Everyone who engages in wrong behavior tries to rationalize and justify it. The difference with homosexuality, as I implied before, is that they have enormous cultural backing to help support their rationalizations.

Even this isn’t really unique though. There is cultural support for others to rationalize their own harmful behavior, including adultery and abortion. Cultures have given similar rationalizations to human sacrifice, genocide and slavery.

Now don’t start hyperventilating: I’m not comparing gays to genocides. I’m only bringing it up these extreme examples to prove that just because your culture supports an activity, that doesn’t mean the activity is good.

Your response to the marketing comment is inapt. Heterosexual relationships are the marketing medium, not the thing being marketed. Heterosexual relationships are on network TV because that is what the customers want to see. Homosexual relationships are on TV because that is what the pro-gay activists want the customers to see.

No one talks to network executive telling them, “we need to have more heterosexual couples on TV to help them gain acceptability.” They most assuredly _do_ do that for homosexual couples.