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	<title>Comments on: Baseball Inflobleg</title>
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	<description>Politische Kommentare mit Snarkenremarken</description>
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		<title>By: tgirsch</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2005/10/02/baseball-inflobleg/comment-page-1/#comment-34540</link>
		<dc:creator>tgirsch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Oct 2005 17:02:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2005/10/02/baseball-inflobleg/#comment-34540</guid>
		<description>Yeah, it seems I may have spoken too soon.  Here&#039;s hoping that the &lt;strike&gt;California&lt;/strike&gt;, err, &lt;strike&gt;Anaheim&lt;/strike&gt;, err, Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim, California don&#039;t blow it.

Then again, in the AL I&#039;m pulling for the White Sox, so it doesn&#039;t much matter anyway.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, it seems I may have spoken too soon.  Here&#8217;s hoping that the <strike>California</strike>, err, <strike>Anaheim</strike>, err, Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim, California don&#8217;t blow it.</p>
<p>Then again, in the AL I&#8217;m pulling for the White Sox, so it doesn&#8217;t much matter anyway.  :)</p>
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		<title>By: Xrlq</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2005/10/02/baseball-inflobleg/comment-page-1/#comment-34396</link>
		<dc:creator>Xrlq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Oct 2005 04:46:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2005/10/02/baseball-inflobleg/#comment-34396</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Of course, in the end it doesn’t much matter, because the Red Sox are already gone and it looks like the Yankees won’t be too far behind them...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Fingers crossed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Of course, in the end it doesn’t much matter, because the Red Sox are already gone and it looks like the Yankees won’t be too far behind them&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>Fingers crossed.</p>
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		<title>By: tgirsch</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2005/10/02/baseball-inflobleg/comment-page-1/#comment-34347</link>
		<dc:creator>tgirsch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Oct 2005 15:44:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2005/10/02/baseball-inflobleg/#comment-34347</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I agree, but I think the new rules should only apply to post-season play; they shouldn’t apply retroactively to the season itself.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
They don&#039;t apply &quot;retro-actively.&quot;  They&#039;re in effect for the entirety of the season.  It&#039;s somewhat uncommon for those rules to actually come into play, but nonetheless, they&#039;re always there.  It&#039;s not as if some arbitrary &lt;i&gt;post hoc&lt;/i&gt; ruling was applied to resolve an unresolvable tie.
&lt;blockquote&gt;I don’t think that a better W/L ratio in one division or league necessarily means that that team played better baseball than a more modest winner in another division&lt;/blockquote&gt;
No, but the team that wins in the playoffs isn&#039;t always the &quot;better&quot; team, either -- they&#039;re just the one that got &quot;hot&quot; at the right time.  That&#039;s how the Marlins won a couple of years ago.  (And it&#039;s actually how Boston won last year.)

In any case, playing a 163rd game in what the rules dictate should be a 162-game season seems no less arbitrary to me than allowing preexisting tiebreakers to rule the day.

Essentially, it seems as if you don&#039;t like the idea of tiebreakers &lt;i&gt;at all&lt;/i&gt;.  I think some tiebreakers (like this one) make sense, and other tiebreakers (like the old Big Ten rule that, in the event of a tie, awarded the conference championship to the team who had won it least recently, even ignoring other aspects like overall record) are just plain dumb.  But here, the Yankees won the season series, so they get the nod.

Of course, in the end it doesn&#039;t much matter, because the Red Sox are already gone and it looks like the Yankees won&#039;t be too far behind them...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I agree, but I think the new rules should only apply to post-season play; they shouldn’t apply retroactively to the season itself.</p></blockquote>
<p>They don&#8217;t apply &#8220;retro-actively.&#8221;  They&#8217;re in effect for the entirety of the season.  It&#8217;s somewhat uncommon for those rules to actually come into play, but nonetheless, they&#8217;re always there.  It&#8217;s not as if some arbitrary <i>post hoc</i> ruling was applied to resolve an unresolvable tie.</p>
<blockquote><p>I don’t think that a better W/L ratio in one division or league necessarily means that that team played better baseball than a more modest winner in another division</p></blockquote>
<p>No, but the team that wins in the playoffs isn&#8217;t always the &#8220;better&#8221; team, either &#8212; they&#8217;re just the one that got &#8220;hot&#8221; at the right time.  That&#8217;s how the Marlins won a couple of years ago.  (And it&#8217;s actually how Boston won last year.)</p>
<p>In any case, playing a 163rd game in what the rules dictate should be a 162-game season seems no less arbitrary to me than allowing preexisting tiebreakers to rule the day.</p>
<p>Essentially, it seems as if you don&#8217;t like the idea of tiebreakers <i>at all</i>.  I think some tiebreakers (like this one) make sense, and other tiebreakers (like the old Big Ten rule that, in the event of a tie, awarded the conference championship to the team who had won it least recently, even ignoring other aspects like overall record) are just plain dumb.  But here, the Yankees won the season series, so they get the nod.</p>
<p>Of course, in the end it doesn&#8217;t much matter, because the Red Sox are already gone and it looks like the Yankees won&#8217;t be too far behind them&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Xrlq</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2005/10/02/baseball-inflobleg/comment-page-1/#comment-33890</link>
		<dc:creator>Xrlq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Oct 2005 21:15:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2005/10/02/baseball-inflobleg/#comment-33890</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;By that rationale, even if the Padres played all five games against the Cardinals and won all five of them, the Cardinals should still advance because the Cardinals are a &quot;better team overall&quot; (100 wins to 87, in that impossible hypothetical). When the regular season ends, new rules come into play.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I agree, but I think the new rules should only apply to post-season play; they shouldn&#039;t apply retroactively to the season itself.  Teams play very different baseball during most of the regular season, where they must pace themselves, than they do in the post-season, where every game is a must-win for both teams, every time.  Also, while I have no doubt that the Cardinals are a better team than the Padres (who &quot;won&quot; the National League Worst only because baseball rules don&#039;t allow for an entire division to lose), I don&#039;t think that a better W/L ratio in one division or league necessarily means that that team played better baseball than a more modest winner in another division: they didn&#039;t play the same teams, the same number of times.  It&#039;s not hard to envision a scenario where the Yanks, the Red Sox, the Angels and the A&#039;s all play better baseball than the Chicago White Sox, but the White Sox end up with the best W-L record because everyone else in the AL Central was bush league.  That&#039;s also the only reason, IMNSHO, why it makes sense to have a wild card team: we know they are the second best in one division (only in this case, we don&#039;t even know that), but for all we know, they might actually be better than the other two division champs (either based on W/L ratio, or otherwise).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>By that rationale, even if the Padres played all five games against the Cardinals and won all five of them, the Cardinals should still advance because the Cardinals are a &#8220;better team overall&#8221; (100 wins to 87, in that impossible hypothetical). When the regular season ends, new rules come into play.</p></blockquote>
<p>I agree, but I think the new rules should only apply to post-season play; they shouldn&#8217;t apply retroactively to the season itself.  Teams play very different baseball during most of the regular season, where they must pace themselves, than they do in the post-season, where every game is a must-win for both teams, every time.  Also, while I have no doubt that the Cardinals are a better team than the Padres (who &#8220;won&#8221; the National League Worst only because baseball rules don&#8217;t allow for an entire division to lose), I don&#8217;t think that a better W/L ratio in one division or league necessarily means that that team played better baseball than a more modest winner in another division: they didn&#8217;t play the same teams, the same number of times.  It&#8217;s not hard to envision a scenario where the Yanks, the Red Sox, the Angels and the A&#8217;s all play better baseball than the Chicago White Sox, but the White Sox end up with the best W-L record because everyone else in the AL Central was bush league.  That&#8217;s also the only reason, IMNSHO, why it makes sense to have a wild card team: we know they are the second best in one division (only in this case, we don&#8217;t even know that), but for all we know, they might actually be better than the other two division champs (either based on W/L ratio, or otherwise).</p>
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		<title>By: tgirsch</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2005/10/02/baseball-inflobleg/comment-page-1/#comment-33880</link>
		<dc:creator>tgirsch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Oct 2005 19:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2005/10/02/baseball-inflobleg/#comment-33880</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Xrlq:&lt;/b&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;So what? They weren’t the better team overall.&lt;/blockquote&gt;By that rationale, even if the Padres played all five games against the Cardinals and won all five of them, the Cardinals should still advance because the Cardinals are a &quot;better team overall&quot; (100 wins to 87, in that impossible hypothetical).  When the regular season ends, new rules come into play.&lt;blockquote&gt;if the head-to-head record really did tell us anything useful about which team had a better record overall, why not use that to break all ties in division championships, not just the ones where the loser will be the wild card team?&lt;/blockquote&gt;Here, at least, I agree with you.  If you&#039;re going to use head-to-head as a tie-breaker, then use it.  The only place where I&#039;d deviate from head-to-head as a tiebreaker is in a three- (or more) way tie.  And even there, if team A beat both teams B and C in head-to-head play, they probably ought to advance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Xrlq:</b><br />
<blockquote>So what? They weren’t the better team overall.</p></blockquote>
<p>By that rationale, even if the Padres played all five games against the Cardinals and won all five of them, the Cardinals should still advance because the Cardinals are a &#8220;better team overall&#8221; (100 wins to 87, in that impossible hypothetical).  When the regular season ends, new rules come into play.<br />
<blockquote>if the head-to-head record really did tell us anything useful about which team had a better record overall, why not use that to break all ties in division championships, not just the ones where the loser will be the wild card team?</p></blockquote>
<p>Here, at least, I agree with you.  If you&#8217;re going to use head-to-head as a tie-breaker, then use it.  The only place where I&#8217;d deviate from head-to-head as a tiebreaker is in a three- (or more) way tie.  And even there, if team A beat both teams B and C in head-to-head play, they probably ought to advance.</p>
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		<title>By: Xrlq</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2005/10/02/baseball-inflobleg/comment-page-1/#comment-33681</link>
		<dc:creator>Xrlq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2005 21:16:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2005/10/02/baseball-inflobleg/#comment-33681</guid>
		<description>Steve Sturm:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Who&#039;d a thunk you were a Bosox fan?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;m not.  My only dog in this fight is that making both teams play another game would leave the Yanks less rested for tomorrow&#039;s game againts the Angels.

TGirsch:
&lt;blockquote&gt;No matter what else happened throughout the season, the Yankees were the better team than the Red Sox in their head-to-head meetings.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

So what?  They weren&#039;t the better team overall.  The Yanks were a trifle better when the teams were playing each other, and the BoSox were the same trifle better when they weren&#039;t.  The season ended on a Sunday, so why not hand the division championship to whichever team had a better win-loss ratio on Sundays?  That makes no more or less sense than the existing rule does.

Conversely, if the head-to-head record really did tell us anything useful about which team had a better record overall, why not use that to break all ties in division championships, not just the ones where the loser will be the wild card team?  Either NY&#039;s record makes them the legitimate AL East champs or it doesn&#039;t; the answer shouldn&#039;t depend on how any teams in other divisions did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve Sturm:</p>
<blockquote><p>Who&#8217;d a thunk you were a Bosox fan?</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;m not.  My only dog in this fight is that making both teams play another game would leave the Yanks less rested for tomorrow&#8217;s game againts the Angels.</p>
<p>TGirsch:</p>
<blockquote><p>No matter what else happened throughout the season, the Yankees were the better team than the Red Sox in their head-to-head meetings.</p></blockquote>
<p>So what?  They weren&#8217;t the better team overall.  The Yanks were a trifle better when the teams were playing each other, and the BoSox were the same trifle better when they weren&#8217;t.  The season ended on a Sunday, so why not hand the division championship to whichever team had a better win-loss ratio on Sundays?  That makes no more or less sense than the existing rule does.</p>
<p>Conversely, if the head-to-head record really did tell us anything useful about which team had a better record overall, why not use that to break all ties in division championships, not just the ones where the loser will be the wild card team?  Either NY&#8217;s record makes them the legitimate AL East champs or it doesn&#8217;t; the answer shouldn&#8217;t depend on how any teams in other divisions did.</p>
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		<title>By: tgirsch</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2005/10/02/baseball-inflobleg/comment-page-1/#comment-33680</link>
		<dc:creator>tgirsch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2005 20:50:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2005/10/02/baseball-inflobleg/#comment-33680</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;steve:&lt;/b&gt;

Actually, although not truly a Bosox &quot;fan,&quot; I detest the Yankees and have a passing interest in the Bosox, and I think this is a reasonable way to decide it.  So don&#039;t go pinning this on the Bosox fans! :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>steve:</b></p>
<p>Actually, although not truly a Bosox &#8220;fan,&#8221; I detest the Yankees and have a passing interest in the Bosox, and I think this is a reasonable way to decide it.  So don&#8217;t go pinning this on the Bosox fans! :)</p>
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		<title>By: tgirsch</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2005/10/02/baseball-inflobleg/comment-page-1/#comment-33679</link>
		<dc:creator>tgirsch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2005 20:47:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2005/10/02/baseball-inflobleg/#comment-33679</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Xrlq:&lt;/b&gt;

I&#039;m afraid you&#039;re all alone on this one.  Using tiebreakers to resolve seeding issues is indeed the most sensible way to do it.  And it&#039;s not like these tiebreaks came as a surprise to anyone.  The Red Sox knew going in to the series with New York that they had to sweep if they wanted to win the division.

The NFL has even more complicated tie breaking rules, wherein head-to-head competition is the first tiebreaker, conference record is the second, etc.

The philosophy behind this is really quite simple, and not at all &quot;lame&quot; in my estimation:  all games are equal in value, &lt;i&gt;except in the event of a tie&lt;/i&gt;, in which case, some games become more valuable than others.

No matter what else happened throughout the season, the Yankees were the better team than the Red Sox in their head-to-head meetings.

Now I&#039;d agree it would be lame if something not related to &lt;i&gt;the two tied teams&lt;/i&gt; were used as a tiebreaker, but the two tied teams are the only factor weighed here, so it makes sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Xrlq:</b></p>
<p>I&#8217;m afraid you&#8217;re all alone on this one.  Using tiebreakers to resolve seeding issues is indeed the most sensible way to do it.  And it&#8217;s not like these tiebreaks came as a surprise to anyone.  The Red Sox knew going in to the series with New York that they had to sweep if they wanted to win the division.</p>
<p>The NFL has even more complicated tie breaking rules, wherein head-to-head competition is the first tiebreaker, conference record is the second, etc.</p>
<p>The philosophy behind this is really quite simple, and not at all &#8220;lame&#8221; in my estimation:  all games are equal in value, <i>except in the event of a tie</i>, in which case, some games become more valuable than others.</p>
<p>No matter what else happened throughout the season, the Yankees were the better team than the Red Sox in their head-to-head meetings.</p>
<p>Now I&#8217;d agree it would be lame if something not related to <i>the two tied teams</i> were used as a tiebreaker, but the two tied teams are the only factor weighed here, so it makes sense.</p>
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		<title>By: steve sturm</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2005/10/02/baseball-inflobleg/comment-page-1/#comment-33678</link>
		<dc:creator>steve sturm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2005 20:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2005/10/02/baseball-inflobleg/#comment-33678</guid>
		<description>Baseball crowns its champions, both league and &#039;world&#039;, by playing best of 7 to determine which is the better team (I can never remember whether they play best of 5 or best of 7 to determine the teams that play for the league championships).... and not through 1 game playoffs, ala the NFL.

So why not use head to head record during the regular season to determine postseason positions - isn&#039;t that a close surrogate for a multi-game series and more in keeping with baseball tradition than a one game playoff?

As Spoons points out, having a one game playoff wrecks pitching rotations for the upcoming series.  Forcing teams to have playoffs to determine home field advantage in the LCS could very well place them at a disadvantage in the Divisional playoffs.

The more I think about this, the more I&#039;m convinced that only two kinds of people got incensed over the Yankees beating out the Red Sox by this method.... purists and Red Sox fans....  Who&#039;d a thunk you were a Bosox fan?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Baseball crowns its champions, both league and &#8216;world&#8217;, by playing best of 7 to determine which is the better team (I can never remember whether they play best of 5 or best of 7 to determine the teams that play for the league championships)&#8230;. and not through 1 game playoffs, ala the NFL.</p>
<p>So why not use head to head record during the regular season to determine postseason positions &#8211; isn&#8217;t that a close surrogate for a multi-game series and more in keeping with baseball tradition than a one game playoff?</p>
<p>As Spoons points out, having a one game playoff wrecks pitching rotations for the upcoming series.  Forcing teams to have playoffs to determine home field advantage in the LCS could very well place them at a disadvantage in the Divisional playoffs.</p>
<p>The more I think about this, the more I&#8217;m convinced that only two kinds of people got incensed over the Yankees beating out the Red Sox by this method&#8230;. purists and Red Sox fans&#8230;.  Who&#8217;d a thunk you were a Bosox fan?</p>
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		<title>By: Xrlq</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2005/10/02/baseball-inflobleg/comment-page-1/#comment-33672</link>
		<dc:creator>Xrlq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2005 16:27:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2005/10/02/baseball-inflobleg/#comment-33672</guid>
		<description>Jody:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Are you really asserting that head-to-head matchups are not the best way of breaking a tie while simultaneously asserting that the tie should be resolved with a head-to-head matchup?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No, I&#039;m saying that the best way to tell which team has the best record of the season is to extend the season long enough for one team or the other to come out on top.  If baseball were allerging to tie-breaking games and absolutely, positively &lt;i&gt;had&lt;/i&gt; to break a tie by retroactively changing the formula for counting games already played, I&#039;d rather they at least adopt some other criterion that actually tells you something about who played better baseball.  Maybe they could just add up all the runs each team scored throughout the season, subtract all the runs it allowed, and hand the division title over to whichever team had more left over.  Or maybe they could come up with some more complex formula that takes runs, hits, errors, LOBs and other statistics into account.  Or they could do what baseball always did before the wild card rule was introduced - and continues to do today when resolving a division tie that will end the season for the losing team - and extend the season by a game.

On the flip side, if you really think an extra post-season, head-to-head game is not a better way of predicter of the superior team, why have playoffs at all?  Why not just hand the pennants over to Chicago and St. Louis right now, and then give the world series to whichever of those teams has beaten the other more often during the season (assuming they played each other during the season; if they didn&#039;t that&#039;s nothing a one-game &quot;World&quot; &quot;Series&quot; couldn&#039;t fix).

Chris L.:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Aside: if the Sox had not qualified for the wild card (but had the same record as the Yanks), would there have been a one-game playoff with the Yanks to determine the division winner? &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes.  That&#039;s why I find the current rule so maddening.  The mentality is similar to socialism and affirmative action: it&#039;s OK to steal X from the person who also has Y, even though it would not be OK to steal X from anyone else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jody:</p>
<blockquote><p>Are you really asserting that head-to-head matchups are not the best way of breaking a tie while simultaneously asserting that the tie should be resolved with a head-to-head matchup?</p></blockquote>
<p>No, I&#8217;m saying that the best way to tell which team has the best record of the season is to extend the season long enough for one team or the other to come out on top.  If baseball were allerging to tie-breaking games and absolutely, positively <i>had</i> to break a tie by retroactively changing the formula for counting games already played, I&#8217;d rather they at least adopt some other criterion that actually tells you something about who played better baseball.  Maybe they could just add up all the runs each team scored throughout the season, subtract all the runs it allowed, and hand the division title over to whichever team had more left over.  Or maybe they could come up with some more complex formula that takes runs, hits, errors, LOBs and other statistics into account.  Or they could do what baseball always did before the wild card rule was introduced &#8211; and continues to do today when resolving a division tie that will end the season for the losing team &#8211; and extend the season by a game.</p>
<p>On the flip side, if you really think an extra post-season, head-to-head game is not a better way of predicter of the superior team, why have playoffs at all?  Why not just hand the pennants over to Chicago and St. Louis right now, and then give the world series to whichever of those teams has beaten the other more often during the season (assuming they played each other during the season; if they didn&#8217;t that&#8217;s nothing a one-game &#8220;World&#8221; &#8220;Series&#8221; couldn&#8217;t fix).</p>
<p>Chris L.:</p>
<blockquote><p>Aside: if the Sox had not qualified for the wild card (but had the same record as the Yanks), would there have been a one-game playoff with the Yanks to determine the division winner? </p></blockquote>
<p>Yes.  That&#8217;s why I find the current rule so maddening.  The mentality is similar to socialism and affirmative action: it&#8217;s OK to steal X from the person who also has Y, even though it would not be OK to steal X from anyone else.</p>
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