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	<title>Comments on: Law-Abiding Libertarian: An Oxymoron?</title>
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	<link>http://xrlq.com/2008/01/19/law-abiding-libertarian-an-oxymoron/</link>
	<description>Politische Kommentare mit Snarkenremarken</description>
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		<title>By: Xrlq</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2008/01/19/law-abiding-libertarian-an-oxymoron/comment-page-1/#comment-314024</link>
		<dc:creator>Xrlq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:51:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2008/01/19/law-abiding-libertarian-an-oxymoron/#comment-314024</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;So there&#039;s a difference in scale. But in principle, how’s it different?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I guess that depends on what your principle is.  The principle I took away from Nuremberg is that there is such a thing as a crime against humanity, an act so evil every decent citizen can be expected to refrain from it even if no law proscribes it, and indeed, even if &quot;color of law&quot; requires it.  But if the principle you took away from Nuremberg was &quot;obey the laws you like, screw the ones you don&#039;t,&quot; then I guess there is no difference between the two in principle, just a shitty principle.

&lt;blockquote&gt;You say the law he broke was constitutional? OK, so it was. How does that make it right?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Irrelevant.  The jury&#039;s job is to decide whether a law was violated, not whether it is &quot;right.&quot; That&#039;s Congress&#039;s job.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Is there such a thing as a law-abiding libertarian? Sure, a libertarian is allowed to obey illegitimate laws, so long as they don&#039;t require him to harm someone else. A libertarian is perfectly entitled to abstain from marijuana, just as he’s entitled to abstain from meat or sugar. But he recognises no obligation to do so.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

By that reasoning, there is no such thing as a law-abiding libertarian.  If the phrase &quot;law-abiding&quot; were applied to everyone who obeys the laws he likes, and considers himself under no obligation to obey the ones he doesn&#039;t, the phrase would have no meaning whatsoever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>So there&#8217;s a difference in scale. But in principle, how’s it different?</p></blockquote>
<p>I guess that depends on what your principle is.  The principle I took away from Nuremberg is that there is such a thing as a crime against humanity, an act so evil every decent citizen can be expected to refrain from it even if no law proscribes it, and indeed, even if &#8220;color of law&#8221; requires it.  But if the principle you took away from Nuremberg was &#8220;obey the laws you like, screw the ones you don&#8217;t,&#8221; then I guess there is no difference between the two in principle, just a shitty principle.</p>
<blockquote><p>You say the law he broke was constitutional? OK, so it was. How does that make it right?</p></blockquote>
<p>Irrelevant.  The jury&#8217;s job is to decide whether a law was violated, not whether it is &#8220;right.&#8221; That&#8217;s Congress&#8217;s job.</p>
<blockquote><p>Is there such a thing as a law-abiding libertarian? Sure, a libertarian is allowed to obey illegitimate laws, so long as they don&#8217;t require him to harm someone else. A libertarian is perfectly entitled to abstain from marijuana, just as he’s entitled to abstain from meat or sugar. But he recognises no obligation to do so.</p></blockquote>
<p>By that reasoning, there is no such thing as a law-abiding libertarian.  If the phrase &#8220;law-abiding&#8221; were applied to everyone who obeys the laws he likes, and considers himself under no obligation to obey the ones he doesn&#8217;t, the phrase would have no meaning whatsoever.</p>
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		<title>By: Sigivald</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2008/01/19/law-abiding-libertarian-an-oxymoron/comment-page-1/#comment-313764</link>
		<dc:creator>Sigivald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 23:01:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2008/01/19/law-abiding-libertarian-an-oxymoron/#comment-313764</guid>
		<description>Jody: &quot;Libertarian&quot; covers a lot of ground, and some of the more fiery Rothbardian (or even Nozickian) types are basically indistinguishable from anarchists in practice. Fortunately, nobody has to be a Rothbardian if they don&#039;t want to be.

Milhouse: Yes, what could the difference be between a jury trial with full due process and appeals, for an action voluntarily undertaken, and leading to jail time, and &lt;i&gt;genocide&lt;/i&gt; (mass murder on the basis of ethnicity, to make things &lt;i&gt;extra&lt;/i&gt;, perhaps even &lt;i&gt;krystall&lt;/i&gt; clear)?

I cannot possibly imagine, apart from a slight difference in degree!

(Yes, jailing an individual is coercion, and yes it causes harm. Yes, it&#039;s even comparable, at some level, to slavery, and you&#039;re being &lt;i&gt;consistent&lt;/i&gt; in condemning jailtime for drug dealers.

But what it isn&#039;t comparable to, in any reasonable conception, is mass-murder, even if you don&#039;t like either, and even if both are coercive and wrong.

Nobody else, you see, sees &quot;coercive&quot; as the most important thing about genocide.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jody: &#8220;Libertarian&#8221; covers a lot of ground, and some of the more fiery Rothbardian (or even Nozickian) types are basically indistinguishable from anarchists in practice. Fortunately, nobody has to be a Rothbardian if they don&#8217;t want to be.</p>
<p>Milhouse: Yes, what could the difference be between a jury trial with full due process and appeals, for an action voluntarily undertaken, and leading to jail time, and <i>genocide</i> (mass murder on the basis of ethnicity, to make things <i>extra</i>, perhaps even <i>krystall</i> clear)?</p>
<p>I cannot possibly imagine, apart from a slight difference in degree!</p>
<p>(Yes, jailing an individual is coercion, and yes it causes harm. Yes, it&#8217;s even comparable, at some level, to slavery, and you&#8217;re being <i>consistent</i> in condemning jailtime for drug dealers.</p>
<p>But what it isn&#8217;t comparable to, in any reasonable conception, is mass-murder, even if you don&#8217;t like either, and even if both are coercive and wrong.</p>
<p>Nobody else, you see, sees &#8220;coercive&#8221; as the most important thing about genocide.)</p>
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		<title>By: DRJ</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2008/01/19/law-abiding-libertarian-an-oxymoron/comment-page-1/#comment-313759</link>
		<dc:creator>DRJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 22:33:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2008/01/19/law-abiding-libertarian-an-oxymoron/#comment-313759</guid>
		<description>The solution is civil disobedience, Milhouse, not jury nullification.  Those two options exemplify the difference between citizenship and anarchy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The solution is civil disobedience, Milhouse, not jury nullification.  Those two options exemplify the difference between citizenship and anarchy.</p>
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		<title>By: nk</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2008/01/19/law-abiding-libertarian-an-oxymoron/comment-page-1/#comment-313754</link>
		<dc:creator>nk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:48:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2008/01/19/law-abiding-libertarian-an-oxymoron/#comment-313754</guid>
		<description>&quot;You say the law he broke was constitutional? OK, so it was. How does that make it right? Who gave the authors of the constitution the power to authorise Congress to make such a law?&quot;

The fact that they brought into being the greatest nation in the history of the world risking everything in the process?  What have you done that entitles you to complain that they&#039;re not fulfilling your every whim you sniveling, petulant baby?  Go find your mommy.  Maybe she&#039;ll agree to give you your lollipop.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;You say the law he broke was constitutional? OK, so it was. How does that make it right? Who gave the authors of the constitution the power to authorise Congress to make such a law?&#8221;</p>
<p>The fact that they brought into being the greatest nation in the history of the world risking everything in the process?  What have you done that entitles you to complain that they&#8217;re not fulfilling your every whim you sniveling, petulant baby?  Go find your mommy.  Maybe she&#8217;ll agree to give you your lollipop.</p>
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		<title>By: Milhouse</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2008/01/19/law-abiding-libertarian-an-oxymoron/comment-page-1/#comment-313749</link>
		<dc:creator>Milhouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:08:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2008/01/19/law-abiding-libertarian-an-oxymoron/#comment-313749</guid>
		<description>So there&#039;s a difference in scale.  But in principle, how&#039;s it different?  Did this defendant initiate force against anyone?  He did not.  Then by what right does the government lock him up for 10 years?  And by what right did Franks collaborate in that act of aggression?

You say the law he broke was constitutional?  OK, so it was.  How does that make it right?  Who gave the authors of the constitution the power to authorise Congress to make such a law?  Jim Crow was constitutional in its time - the Supreme Court said so.  Did that make it right?

Is there such a thing as a law-abiding libertarian? Sure, a libertarian is &lt;i&gt;allowed&lt;/i&gt; to obey illegitimate laws, so long as they don&#039;t require him to harm someone else.  A libertarian is perfectly entitled to abstain from marijuana, just as he&#039;s entitled to abstain from meat or sugar.  But he recognises no &lt;i&gt;obligation&lt;/i&gt; to do so.  And he&#039;s not entitled to collaborate in punishing someone for breaking such a law; if the law requires him to do so then he is morally obligated to defy that law.  And it makes no difference whether the accused&#039;s &quot;crime&quot; is smoking a joint or being an escaped slave, or whether the penalty is $50 or 50 years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So there&#8217;s a difference in scale.  But in principle, how&#8217;s it different?  Did this defendant initiate force against anyone?  He did not.  Then by what right does the government lock him up for 10 years?  And by what right did Franks collaborate in that act of aggression?</p>
<p>You say the law he broke was constitutional?  OK, so it was.  How does that make it right?  Who gave the authors of the constitution the power to authorise Congress to make such a law?  Jim Crow was constitutional in its time &#8211; the Supreme Court said so.  Did that make it right?</p>
<p>Is there such a thing as a law-abiding libertarian? Sure, a libertarian is <i>allowed</i> to obey illegitimate laws, so long as they don&#8217;t require him to harm someone else.  A libertarian is perfectly entitled to abstain from marijuana, just as he&#8217;s entitled to abstain from meat or sugar.  But he recognises no <i>obligation</i> to do so.  And he&#8217;s not entitled to collaborate in punishing someone for breaking such a law; if the law requires him to do so then he is morally obligated to defy that law.  And it makes no difference whether the accused&#8217;s &#8220;crime&#8221; is smoking a joint or being an escaped slave, or whether the penalty is $50 or 50 years.</p>
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		<title>By: SayUncle &#187; Quote of the day</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2008/01/19/law-abiding-libertarian-an-oxymoron/comment-page-1/#comment-313529</link>
		<dc:creator>SayUncle &#187; Quote of the day</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:54:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2008/01/19/law-abiding-libertarian-an-oxymoron/#comment-313529</guid>
		<description>[...] two quotes. First, Jody in comments here: I think there</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] two quotes. First, Jody in comments here: I think there</p>
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		<title>By: Jody</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2008/01/19/law-abiding-libertarian-an-oxymoron/comment-page-1/#comment-311970</link>
		<dc:creator>Jody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:13:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2008/01/19/law-abiding-libertarian-an-oxymoron/#comment-311970</guid>
		<description>I think there&#039;s a difference between a libertarian and an anarchist. Unfortunately for libertarians, many anarchists don&#039;t know the difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there&#8217;s a difference between a libertarian and an anarchist. Unfortunately for libertarians, many anarchists don&#8217;t know the difference.</p>
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		<title>By: nk</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2008/01/19/law-abiding-libertarian-an-oxymoron/comment-page-1/#comment-311057</link>
		<dc:creator>nk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2008 03:02:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/2008/01/19/law-abiding-libertarian-an-oxymoron/#comment-311057</guid>
		<description>Has your oldest started saying, &quot;it&#039;s not fair&quot;, when you scold him, yet?  That&#039;s my view of libertarians/Randroids, lately.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has your oldest started saying, &#8220;it&#8217;s not fair&#8221;, when you scold him, yet?  That&#8217;s my view of libertarians/Randroids, lately.</p>
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