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	<title>Comments on: Question for Ticketmaster</title>
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	<link>http://xrlq.com/2009/01/08/question-for-ticketmaster/</link>
	<description>Politische Kommentare mit Snarkenremarken</description>
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		<title>By: Xrlq</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2009/01/08/question-for-ticketmaster/comment-page-1/#comment-476391</link>
		<dc:creator>Xrlq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 22:37:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/?p=4250#comment-476391</guid>
		<description>If there&#039;s no way to purchase the tickets at the advertised price, I&#039;m curious why the plaintiff bar hasn&#039;t had a field day.  As far as I&#039;m concerned, &lt;i&gt;that&lt;/i&gt; goes beyond what I called &quot;legalized fraud&quot; and into the non-legalized variety.  And I don&#039;t think it&#039;s fair to characterize as &quot;stupid&quot; all individuals who pay these ridiculous fees.  Going to the venue to buy the ticket is not always a realistic option.  It&#039;s bad enough if you work in Winston-Salem and have to waste an extra trip to Greensboro, but what if someone were planning a trip from across the country?

As a formerly true blue libertarian, and still one of the light blue variety, I&#039;m loath to say &quot;there oughta be a law&quot; to almost anything, but this particular business seems so rife with fraud that I could support a law prohibiting &quot;convenience fees&quot; altogether, and requiring venue owners to either not engage Ticketmaster, or to give them a cut of the ticket price instead in lieu of the fees.  Another option would be to require any venue owner who engages a ticket agency like TM to advertise the total price as the face value, but remain free to offer a discount to those who purchase directly from the venue owner, if they want to (and of course they won&#039;t want to, since encouraging more people to come there will cost them rather than saving them money).  Oddly enough, I&#039;m not even sure &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ticketnews.com/Ticketmaster-Entertainment-tries-dropping-convenience-fees-for-some-tickets1181122&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ticketmaster&lt;/a&gt; would oppose that.  It&#039;s not as though they&#039;re the ultimate beneficiaries of the scam.  The venue owners are, being allowed to advertise their tickets as though they were cheaper than they really are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If there&#8217;s no way to purchase the tickets at the advertised price, I&#8217;m curious why the plaintiff bar hasn&#8217;t had a field day.  As far as I&#8217;m concerned, <i>that</i> goes beyond what I called &#8220;legalized fraud&#8221; and into the non-legalized variety.  And I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s fair to characterize as &#8220;stupid&#8221; all individuals who pay these ridiculous fees.  Going to the venue to buy the ticket is not always a realistic option.  It&#8217;s bad enough if you work in Winston-Salem and have to waste an extra trip to Greensboro, but what if someone were planning a trip from across the country?</p>
<p>As a formerly true blue libertarian, and still one of the light blue variety, I&#8217;m loath to say &#8220;there oughta be a law&#8221; to almost anything, but this particular business seems so rife with fraud that I could support a law prohibiting &#8220;convenience fees&#8221; altogether, and requiring venue owners to either not engage Ticketmaster, or to give them a cut of the ticket price instead in lieu of the fees.  Another option would be to require any venue owner who engages a ticket agency like TM to advertise the total price as the face value, but remain free to offer a discount to those who purchase directly from the venue owner, if they want to (and of course they won&#8217;t want to, since encouraging more people to come there will cost them rather than saving them money).  Oddly enough, I&#8217;m not even sure <a href="http://www.ticketnews.com/Ticketmaster-Entertainment-tries-dropping-convenience-fees-for-some-tickets1181122" rel="nofollow">Ticketmaster</a> would oppose that.  It&#8217;s not as though they&#8217;re the ultimate beneficiaries of the scam.  The venue owners are, being allowed to advertise their tickets as though they were cheaper than they really are.</p>
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		<title>By: tgirsch</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2009/01/08/question-for-ticketmaster/comment-page-1/#comment-475834</link>
		<dc:creator>tgirsch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 16:06:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/?p=4250#comment-475834</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;My only difference from your position is that I wouldn’t necessarily ban all separate service charges, if they involve actual services above and beyond the basic transaction of purchasing a ticket. If you purchase the ticket the day before the event and they have to overnight the tix instead of sending them regular mail, it’s fair to charge for that.&lt;/i&gt;

That&#039;s actually not a difference in position.  I agree.  If I can drive over to the venue box office at buy a ticket for the advertised price, then that&#039;s legit, as far as I&#039;m concerned, even if they charge extra for stuff like printing your own tickets (&lt;i&gt;stupid&lt;/i&gt; but not illegal -- and actually not even stupid as long as there are people stupid enough to pay those charges), or charge-by-phone &quot;convenience&quot; fees, or whatever.  If you&#039;re advertising the ticket price as $20, as long as there&#039;s &lt;i&gt;some reasonable way&lt;/i&gt; people can actually get a ticket for $20, I don&#039;t have a problem with that.

And this is the way it usually is with things like sporting events.  But when it comes to concerts, theater tickets, touring shows, etc., you often get hit with service charges &lt;i&gt;no matter how&lt;/i&gt; you obtain the tickets.  (You&#039;re right that this might be a state-by-state thing.)

The most egregious example I remember is a yearly music festival that happens here in Memphis in a downtown park.  Since there is no actual &quot;venue,&quot; there&#039;s no venue box office, and so the &lt;i&gt;only&lt;/i&gt; way to buy tickets is through ticketing outlets, which of course charge the &quot;convenience&quot; fees -- generally a per-ticket fee plus a per-&lt;i&gt;order&lt;/i&gt; fee.  They &lt;i&gt;do&lt;/i&gt; open ticket booths at the park during the event, if it&#039;s not sold out beforehand, but they also raise the ticket prices once the event starts.  So as far as I can tell, there&#039;s absolutely no way of paying the advertised price for tickets.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;tgirsch&#039;s last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.leanleft.com/archives/2009/01/14/7176/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Perfect Summation&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>My only difference from your position is that I wouldn’t necessarily ban all separate service charges, if they involve actual services above and beyond the basic transaction of purchasing a ticket. If you purchase the ticket the day before the event and they have to overnight the tix instead of sending them regular mail, it’s fair to charge for that.</i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s actually not a difference in position.  I agree.  If I can drive over to the venue box office at buy a ticket for the advertised price, then that&#8217;s legit, as far as I&#8217;m concerned, even if they charge extra for stuff like printing your own tickets (<i>stupid</i> but not illegal &#8212; and actually not even stupid as long as there are people stupid enough to pay those charges), or charge-by-phone &#8220;convenience&#8221; fees, or whatever.  If you&#8217;re advertising the ticket price as $20, as long as there&#8217;s <i>some reasonable way</i> people can actually get a ticket for $20, I don&#8217;t have a problem with that.</p>
<p>And this is the way it usually is with things like sporting events.  But when it comes to concerts, theater tickets, touring shows, etc., you often get hit with service charges <i>no matter how</i> you obtain the tickets.  (You&#8217;re right that this might be a state-by-state thing.)</p>
<p>The most egregious example I remember is a yearly music festival that happens here in Memphis in a downtown park.  Since there is no actual &#8220;venue,&#8221; there&#8217;s no venue box office, and so the <i>only</i> way to buy tickets is through ticketing outlets, which of course charge the &#8220;convenience&#8221; fees &#8212; generally a per-ticket fee plus a per-<i>order</i> fee.  They <i>do</i> open ticket booths at the park during the event, if it&#8217;s not sold out beforehand, but they also raise the ticket prices once the event starts.  So as far as I can tell, there&#8217;s absolutely no way of paying the advertised price for tickets.</p>
<p><abbr><em>tgirsch&#8217;s last blog post..<a href="http://www.leanleft.com/archives/2009/01/14/7176/" rel="nofollow">The Perfect Summation</a></em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: Xrlq</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2009/01/08/question-for-ticketmaster/comment-page-1/#comment-475217</link>
		<dc:creator>Xrlq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 00:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/?p=4250#comment-475217</guid>
		<description>I must be a Democrat, too, then.  I&#039;m all for charging what you want, but not for disguising prices by loading crap up with junk fees.  If you want to sell a ticket for $13, great.  If you&#039;d rather sell it for $20, that&#039;s your prerogative, as well, but then advertise it at that price and let the public decide, without trickery, if that is the price they are willing to pay.  My only difference from your position is that I wouldn&#039;t necessarily ban all separate service charges, if they involve actual services above and beyond the basic transaction of purchasing a ticket.  If you purchase the ticket the day before the event and they have to overnight the tix instead of sending them regular mail, it&#039;s fair to charge for that.  If you want the tickets held at will call, which requires them to hire more people for your convenience, then I have no problem with charging for that, either.  But the junk fees we&#039;re talking about here don&#039;t come close.  They give the game away by calling them &quot;convenience charges&quot; rather than service charges.  They&#039;re not even &lt;i&gt;pretending&lt;/i&gt; to offer you a service; they&#039;re admitting up front that the only reason they&#039;re charging you the fee is because purchasing online is convenient for you, not because it costs them anything!  A better test is to ask what insurance companies do, as we&#039;re regulated to the hilt and have to justify every surcharge or discount we apply to just about anything.  I&#039;ve never heard of any insurance company tacking on a &quot;convenience fee&quot; for those who save them money by quoting or purchasing online.  I have heard of carriers offering &lt;i&gt;discounts&lt;/i&gt; for that, and expect more to follow suit in the future, as it really is a win-win.

As for buying tickets at face value at the venue box office, I wonder if this is a state by state thing.  It seems to be pretty standard here in NC that the venue box office is the one place that actually honored the official price, and I remember California that way, too.  I&#039;ve always assumed there was some law allowing you to lie and pretend that the price of the ticket is actually lower than it is, as long as there is one place in the world where people can actually obtain it at that price.  But I don&#039;t know.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;Xrlq&#180;s last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://xrlq.com/2009/01/10/avian-paradox/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Avian Paradox&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must be a Democrat, too, then.  I&#8217;m all for charging what you want, but not for disguising prices by loading crap up with junk fees.  If you want to sell a ticket for $13, great.  If you&#8217;d rather sell it for $20, that&#8217;s your prerogative, as well, but then advertise it at that price and let the public decide, without trickery, if that is the price they are willing to pay.  My only difference from your position is that I wouldn&#8217;t necessarily ban all separate service charges, if they involve actual services above and beyond the basic transaction of purchasing a ticket.  If you purchase the ticket the day before the event and they have to overnight the tix instead of sending them regular mail, it&#8217;s fair to charge for that.  If you want the tickets held at will call, which requires them to hire more people for your convenience, then I have no problem with charging for that, either.  But the junk fees we&#8217;re talking about here don&#8217;t come close.  They give the game away by calling them &#8220;convenience charges&#8221; rather than service charges.  They&#8217;re not even <i>pretending</i> to offer you a service; they&#8217;re admitting up front that the only reason they&#8217;re charging you the fee is because purchasing online is convenient for you, not because it costs them anything!  A better test is to ask what insurance companies do, as we&#8217;re regulated to the hilt and have to justify every surcharge or discount we apply to just about anything.  I&#8217;ve never heard of any insurance company tacking on a &#8220;convenience fee&#8221; for those who save them money by quoting or purchasing online.  I have heard of carriers offering <i>discounts</i> for that, and expect more to follow suit in the future, as it really is a win-win.</p>
<p>As for buying tickets at face value at the venue box office, I wonder if this is a state by state thing.  It seems to be pretty standard here in NC that the venue box office is the one place that actually honored the official price, and I remember California that way, too.  I&#8217;ve always assumed there was some law allowing you to lie and pretend that the price of the ticket is actually lower than it is, as long as there is one place in the world where people can actually obtain it at that price.  But I don&#8217;t know.</p>
<p><abbr><em>Xrlq&#180;s last blog post..<a href="http://xrlq.com/2009/01/10/avian-paradox/" rel="nofollow">Avian Paradox</a></em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: tgirsch</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2009/01/08/question-for-ticketmaster/comment-page-1/#comment-475117</link>
		<dc:creator>tgirsch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 17:50:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/?p=4250#comment-475117</guid>
		<description>Aww, hell, I forgot to update my CommentLuv.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;tgirsch&#180;s last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.leanleft.com/archives/2009/01/12/7158/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Up is Down, Black is White&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aww, hell, I forgot to update my CommentLuv.</p>
<p><abbr><em>tgirsch&#180;s last blog post..<a href="http://www.leanleft.com/archives/2009/01/12/7158/" rel="nofollow">Up is Down, Black is White</a></em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: tgirsch</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2009/01/08/question-for-ticketmaster/comment-page-1/#comment-475116</link>
		<dc:creator>tgirsch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 17:49:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/?p=4250#comment-475116</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Xrlq:&lt;/b&gt;

That&#039;s true:  Before there was the monopoly, there was collusion.  :)  But I&#039;m surprised driving to the venue box office saved you anything.  Most of the time, you still get hit with a bunch of service charges.  You know me, I&#039;m a Democrat, and I like regulation:  I&#039;d put in a regulation that says that your advertised price for any tickets must include any and all service charges.  I bought some tickets for an event here where the advertised price was something like $35, but the lowest actual price you could get them for was almost $60.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;tgirsch&#180;s last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.leanleft.com/archives/2009/01/12/7160/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Do That To Me One More Time&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Xrlq:</b></p>
<p>That&#8217;s true:  Before there was the monopoly, there was collusion.  :)  But I&#8217;m surprised driving to the venue box office saved you anything.  Most of the time, you still get hit with a bunch of service charges.  You know me, I&#8217;m a Democrat, and I like regulation:  I&#8217;d put in a regulation that says that your advertised price for any tickets must include any and all service charges.  I bought some tickets for an event here where the advertised price was something like $35, but the lowest actual price you could get them for was almost $60.</p>
<p><abbr><em>tgirsch&#180;s last blog post..<a href="http://www.leanleft.com/archives/2009/01/12/7160/" rel="nofollow">Do That To Me One More Time</a></em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: nk</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2009/01/08/question-for-ticketmaster/comment-page-1/#comment-475088</link>
		<dc:creator>nk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:39:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/?p=4250#comment-475088</guid>
		<description>Aw fer cryin&#039; out loud.  Just what kind of member of the new economy, free-market and service-oriented, are you?  Just exactly what do you have against giving a large part of your spending money to people who produce nothing, and do nothing that you want them to do for you?  Do you want all these poor employees of Ticketmaster to be waiting to clean your widshield with spit and their sleeves, for a quarter, at the end of the off-ramp of I-94?

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;nk&#180;s last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://krites.blogspot.com/2008/12/seasons-greetings-one-more-time.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Season&#039;s Greetings One More Time&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aw fer cryin&#8217; out loud.  Just what kind of member of the new economy, free-market and service-oriented, are you?  Just exactly what do you have against giving a large part of your spending money to people who produce nothing, and do nothing that you want them to do for you?  Do you want all these poor employees of Ticketmaster to be waiting to clean your widshield with spit and their sleeves, for a quarter, at the end of the off-ramp of I-94?</p>
<p><abbr><em>nk&#180;s last blog post..<a href="http://krites.blogspot.com/2008/12/seasons-greetings-one-more-time.html" rel="nofollow">Season&#8217;s Greetings One More Time</a></em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: Anwyn</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2009/01/08/question-for-ticketmaster/comment-page-1/#comment-474673</link>
		<dc:creator>Anwyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 19:40:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/?p=4250#comment-474673</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m good with that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m good with that.</p>
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		<title>By: Xrlq</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2009/01/08/question-for-ticketmaster/comment-page-1/#comment-474660</link>
		<dc:creator>Xrlq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 19:04:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/?p=4250#comment-474660</guid>
		<description>Yes.  It&#039;s a free country, they can charge what they want.  They just shouldn&#039;t be allowed to lie about the price, which is all these junk fees are good for.  Well, that plus lamely refusing to refund this part of the price if the event is cancelled.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes.  It&#8217;s a free country, they can charge what they want.  They just shouldn&#8217;t be allowed to lie about the price, which is all these junk fees are good for.  Well, that plus lamely refusing to refund this part of the price if the event is cancelled.</p>
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		<title>By: Anwyn</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2009/01/08/question-for-ticketmaster/comment-page-1/#comment-474659</link>
		<dc:creator>Anwyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 18:59:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/?p=4250#comment-474659</guid>
		<description>In which case the ticket price would go up, eh. Would that satisfy your notion of doing away what you currently describe as fraud?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In which case the ticket price would go up, eh. Would that satisfy your notion of doing away what you currently describe as fraud?</p>
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		<title>By: Xrlq</title>
		<link>http://xrlq.com/2009/01/08/question-for-ticketmaster/comment-page-1/#comment-474640</link>
		<dc:creator>Xrlq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 18:37:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrlq.com/?p=4250#comment-474640</guid>
		<description>Nah, that should come out of the price of the ticket, as does the salary of the extra ticket window salesperson they&#039;d have to hire if you didn&#039;t purchase online.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nah, that should come out of the price of the ticket, as does the salary of the extra ticket window salesperson they&#8217;d have to hire if you didn&#8217;t purchase online.</p>
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